This Thing We Call Democracy

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Related links:  

Durham Drives: Free Rides to Go Vote 
Understanding How and Why North Carolina College Students Lose Their Right to Vote 
The Wilhelmina M. Reuben-Cooke Culturally Responsive Pedagogy and Practices Project 
 

Full Transcript

Welcome to Duets, a podcast exploring the human side of research collaborations between Duke faculty and undergraduate students. 

Today we're joined by Professor Gunther Peck and student Hannah McKnight, whose collaborative research is grounded in community storytelling and voting rights activism.

Gunther: I'm Gunther Peck. I'm a Professor of History and Public Policy. And I'm also a voting rights activist and have thoroughly enjoyed doing research about why people don't vote and why they do vote.

Hannah: My name is Hannah McKnight. I studied English and History at Duke, undergrad. I founded and direct Durham Drives, which is a grassroots nonprofit for voter advocacy and transportation in Durham. And I've been working with Gunther for about three years now since the 2020 election on various projects. 

So, Gunther, what is the time that your research made you feel hopeful?

Gunther: I think the most vivid one actually came from you. When you described the response that the NC Central students had to learning that their votes had not counted that they'd been disenfranchised. And our fear had been that they would say: to heck with democracy. But that's not what they said, and the energy, that moral authority and voice is hope itself, literally incarnate. And then another moment was when we were trying, as a team, to figure out what on earth can we do with this research to persuade good people to change, to make changes that would actually count. And that was just so much fun to see people figuring things out in real time that could actually be done — and wouldn't have to wait for the federal government to save us.

Hannah: The collaboration that came out of that, and really the fun and the friendships that came out of that as well — it was really incredible. And kind of drew me in a way into this more academic research because I came into Duke wanting to be, like, a writer and a creative. And I've always been passionate about politics and what's going on in the world, but it was really the community and storytelling aspect of what we were doing that made me be immediately all in. I think it's really important to build systems of trust around systems of community. And, so every single person I've talked to who — even if they don't care at all — the time that they'll give to these conversations makes me feel hopeful. I think working with people is fun, and people are interesting and it's fun to talk to people about these things. I think there's a lot of hope in the future of democracy, that you kind of have to be that way, in my opinion. Like, I don't look at election outcomes. I love being nonpartisan in all the work that we do because, to me, it can't be about that, because that feels too pessimistic or cynical. 

Gunther: I love that answer because you're speaking to the curiosity that informs really transformative research, where you don't know the answer, as well as really effective democracy work. And I'm just so struck by how both of those things can actually amplify each other and there's hope in that, there's hope that the story will teach you something. And even the stories and what you said is reminding me of some of the most energizing conversations I've had with citizens who don't want to vote, are the ones when I'm learning that — when they're candid and beautiful with their story to tell you why exactly the system is not working for them. That is a gift because you will learn something that no poll can tell you. And so that's expansive. That's curiosity. And most people like to be — not everyone, but most people — like to have their story be heard. 

So, Hannah, given what you've just said about research and hope, if you could go back and give your 18-year-old self a piece of advice, what would it be?

Hannah: I think I would tell my 18-year-old self that not everything has to be so serious all the time. Everything exists in nuance, you know, there's no right, there's no wrong. You don't have to argue every cause. Sometimes it's far more valuable to have a conversation that doesn't come from a place of defensiveness or judgment and to be interested in something than it is to argue or to try to feel like you have to convince someone of something. When I started taking it all less seriously — not in that it doesn't matter as much — but in that, no solution has to be perfect. And perfection is the enemy of getting things done, which we've talked about before because that was a big thing for me. But I used to be such a perfectionist and it stopped me from doing anything. 

I wonder, is there a moment in your life or as a younger person that you can look back on that has brought you here? 

Gunther: One moment? That's hard. I think maybe not when I was 18, but when I was 20, I did get really excited about trying to understand why people didn't vote. And I had this, maybe naïve, belief that if only everyone would stand up and vote, that would just change everything. If everyone who felt like me, stood up and spoke then we would see the change we would want to have in our world. And so, I volunteered. I just graduated from Princeton with a degree that was beautiful and completely unusable to get a job, and so I volunteered to work as the college coordinator for a voter registration drive in Western New York. And I set out with a lousy car and basically went from campus to campus to try to hear what people were thinking, and I just built a kind of grassroots energy around the practice of voting and why it helps you feel better — almost like therapy. And I learned so much then that has informed what a lot of my life's work has been about since, which is — that collaboration is the essence of what we can do. And the idea that I, one person, could affect an outcome is a beautiful idea, but that notion ran headlong into the realities that it's more fun to collaborate, to find what people are passionate about, to listen first and then get creative. 

Hannah: It’s really interesting to hear. I never really realized how similar your experience was to mine, because I was also 20, started out doing voter registration. 

Gunther: Yeah.

Hannah: So, maybe all 20-year-olds need to have an election happen. Wait, that doesn’t make sense. Maybe everyone needs an el— no. All 20-year-olds need to do something. 

Gunther: Well, I think...I think that — well, that's true.

Hannah: 20-year-olds need to vote.

Gunther: That's definitely true.

Hannah: There's something so slow and methodical about doing election work over time, and that really makes me think about your gardening. Can you tell me a little bit about your gardening, how you became a gardener? And, maybe, talk about how you think that might apply to the other things that you do?

Gunther: My father was an amazing gardener and he taught me a lot about gardening — and about, like, hope that there is a harvest that you can't see. And the relationships that are in a garden, because a garden is just really, you know, working dirt. It's the dirt that's the appeal for me, it's not even the blooms — which are awesome and lovely, and all the habitat that come with it — but really enriching the soil of where you live is what I love about gardening. I do think the practice of hope is something we cultivate. We literally, it is a muscle that we build, it doesn't just come to us. So, for me gardening is that practice. And it never works out the way you think. Ever. Literally every garden I've done has done something sideways and some other thing takes off, and that teaches you as well. That is the practice that I love so much about it.

Hannah: If anyone wants to get involved with anything voting-related in Durham or North Carolina, please reach out to us. We would love to work with you on the 2024 election. 

Gunther: A couple of really exciting things are coming from this collaboration and one of them is a commitment to build an ongoing student voting rights lab at Duke, which would continue the work of investigating how voting rights are working, and whether they're working, and where they’re not working and what we can do about it. And it will be story-based — so we're really excited about that because I do think that the stories people tell lead to other solutions that you can't even see in the data. So, it'll use data, for sure, but also be qualitative in its focus. Really excited about that — and Durham Drives will be active in the fall of 2024, I can promise you that.

Hannah: You can also find us on our website at DurhamDrives.org. 

Senior Editor and Producer: Cara August, Trinity Communications
Audio Editor and Mixer: Marc Maximov
Music Composition: Grace Davis, T’26
Production Sponsor: Trinity College of Arts & Sciences, Duke University
Recording Date and Location: December 2023, Bryan Center Studios

Duets is produced by Trinity College of Arts and Sciences at Duke University.